The only suggestion I have is give him a dose of his own medicine, for a little while everything he wants or tries to ask for, fun or not, gets the answer no from you. He will learn what no means and what it feels like to be told no.

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The step between time-out and spanking- take away something that is very important to him. Examples could be No TV, No video games, No snacks (other than veggies), No late bed time, No spiderman toy (or whatever), No dessert while everyone else eats theirs, No friends over, No favorite activity, etc....

Did you notice all the "No"s in those punishments? The important thing is that you back up your threat, and you don't let him get away with it after the first one. And you make him suffer for the entire day, and if that doesn't work- the entire week. It won't be long before his power struggle is squashed.

Also, don't make such a big deal out of it. Just punish him and move on, and ignore any fits he is having. Half the fun for him is that he gets to drive you crazy. Don't let that happen.

i can relate to your frustration. i have two sons, aged two and four years old. needless to say, my house is pretty chaotic at times, and i definitely get triggered. i've had experiences much like the one you're describing, and it's really freaking hard...

but after reading your post and the followup comments, i wanted to offer something from a slightly different perspective. i'm making these suggestions without judgment. just a few more tools, and food for thought.

i teach classes and lead a dad's group at a very cool nonprofit in los angeles called the center for nonviolent education and parenting. from the point of view of our philosophy, i emphatically disagree with the other two comments. one said "give him a dose of his own medicine," and the other said "make him suffer for the entire day." one lesson your son might derive from these methods is that he should be afraid of his dad, and despite the fact that most people in our society teach their children to fear their parents, it's very damaging to our children, and to our relationships with them.

it's important to remember that he's FOUR years old. in terms of brain development, the part of his brain that controls logic and problem-solving (the neocortex) doesn't get into its biggest developmental stage until age six. he might not be developmentally able to do what you are asking. i presume that YOU are a bit older than four. give him a taste of his own medicine? please. the behavior (that is so difficult for you) is a strategy he's using to meet a need. what do you think he might need in those moments when he's saying "no" and you're getting triggered? commonly, toddlers are looking for one or more of the following six things: connection, attention, affection, autonomy, acceptance and appreciation.

research shows that children who are punished (both corporally as well as emotionally, aka time outs) actually "misbehave" MORE than children who receive no punishment at all. (i know that's hard to believe, but this is the prevalent and highly credible science in the field)

i'm not suggesting permissive parenting at all. children need limits and boundaries for three reasons: safety, social acceptance, and family values. but HOW we create and enforce those limits is really important. i have a lot to say about this, but i'll leave it with the idea that if you can find a way to acknowledge your son's feelings and meet his needs, you may find that more effective than some of the punitive tools you're already using. no, he can't get on the table. but he needs to learn intrinsically that it's not ok. offering a bribe or punishing him afterwards is a manipulation. he'll do what you want to avoid the punishment or get the goodie, but those are extrinsic reasons. he's not developing an understanding of the issue, and he's not building a relationship with his dad (except as master and subservient). i highly recommend a book called "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn. he's got a lot to offer on this point.

i know first hand that having a four year old is really hard. but i also know first hand what it's like to become emotionally disconnected from a father. as a stay at home dad, you have a unique opportunity to build a loving and lasting bond with your son that is far deeper than most fathers and sons in our culture experience. i can tell from your post that you really care about your kid. hang in there with him in those hard moments and try to connect with what HIS experience is. that small amount of empathy will likely stop much of the behavior that is bothering you.

ashley montague says: "the child... will become the kind of human that he or she has experienced." i encourage you to think about who you want your son to be when he is your age and make a list of those attributes. then try to be that person when you're dealing with your son.

so. a concrete tool to use when your son says no to everything: O.F. N.E.E.D.S. Observe for Feelings and Needs, Engage, give Empathy and (finally) Develop Solutions. i can explain each step the long way, but i'm completely ranting already. the short explanation is: empathy, empathy, empathy. if your kid feels like his dad really gets him, he's not going to play the game that he's needing to play. (he'll do other things that drive you nuts, but not that one.)

wow, sorry to be so long-winded. i have a ton more to say, but i'll stop here by saying that i have the same issues with my kids that everyone else has. nonviolence works.

-brian

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Ah, the "no" phase. My middle one will be 4 in February, and he has been in it for a while, but is fortunately on his way out of it (mostly). Another resource for the basic approach Brian is advocating is the Love & Logic stuff. They have tons of material out there, including a website with audio links and other stuff. Empathy really is a powerful thing for dealing with (and understanding) your kids.

Aside from that, one simple tool we used when ours was at his worst: We told him he could only say no if someone was hurting him, or taking something from him. It was suggested by one of the preschool teachers. (He goes 3 days per week.) This seems too simple, and obviously, he'll breach that rule a lot. However, you get him thinking about what he is saying, why he is saying it, etc. In the end, he'll still say no when you don't want him to, but it will be considered (even if only briefly) rather than just blurted out.

Good luck!

Jim
Boulder, CO
Dad to Cole, Luke & Trev

I truly appreciate that there are many opinions on the question, and that different children need different solutions, but I really think that the culture of my-kid-can-do-no-wrong and the over-focus on parent-child bonding is turning our kids into irresponsible brats who can't unattach from their parents. Fair punishment is not damaging to a child's psychology. A good parent is a benevolent dictator- kind to their kids in a household where the adult makes the decision and the kid obeys those decisions..

I find it hard to believe that doing absolutely nothing would inspire better behavior. In fact, I'd like to see that study because it sounds like absolute b.s. A household without consequences would not adequately prepare a child for the real world (or even school) where consequences are a part of life. If you break into a house, the policeman isn't going to try to emotionallly feel your reasons. He's going to put your ass in jail.

To cause a child to "suffer" is so easy. It's not like you have to waterboard them. Just don't let them watch TV, or put them to bed early. The point of those punishments are that you won't have to do them very long because your kid wants those things back. It's not about fear. It's about priorities, and desires, and... fair reasonable consequences.

This article says it better than I ever could...
http://www.babble.com/content/articles/features/dispatches/Alexander/No-Doesnt-Mean-No/

hi tick-

i agree that no one solution will be right for every kid.

but there's a lot in what you wrote that i don't think quite reflects what i said. let me clarify.

i'm not advocating "doing absolutely nothing," and i certainly don't think that my kid can do no wrong. kids really need boundaries and limits. i don't think that parents should be permissive.

but you don't need to punish children for them to understand that the cops will put you in jail for robbing a house. that's like saying that a child needs to be prepared to live in a polluted environment so we should smoke in their bedroom and serve them contaminated water. we don't need to be racist in our houses to prepare our kids for a racist culture, why do need to prepare them to be punished?

limits and boundaries should be established and gently supported. when kids "break the rules" they should be approached empathetically to figure out why. and then, usually, the limit will be upheld and the child will not always like it. i'm not saying that we have to always please them or do what they want.

i know that i'm representing a voice that probably seems like the lunatic fringe. i'm suggesting that the dominant paradigm of way most people in our culture raise children is flawed, and that there is a way to raise children that treats them with respect and dignity, even when they are rude or annoying to us.

we might know as parents that we're trying to teach priorities, etc... but a four year old just feels punished. do you really imagine your child sitting in their room thinking about what they did?

i'm out of town, but i'll post the research when i get back in a couple of days. i assure you, it's real.

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i've used the take away method and they get back whatever was taken away when they've managed to gather themselves...

i'm somewhere between the dog whisperer and super nanny when it comes to who is in charge. i try to be stern and forceful (w/ my tone) to let them know i mean business.

and there's always the three count or some sort of countdown to the disciplinary action so they know it is coming.

one thing every parent probably can agree on here is that kids need boundaries and rules (and a healthy diet and good rest). i find when the chaos theory rears its ugly head (like holiday time) is when all hell tends to break loose in my hoise hold

I don't think you are the lunatic fringe. Closer to the majority, actually. It's an appealing thought that empathy and motivational empowerment will help a four year old. I think that type of parenting is happening more and more, but I don't think it's ultimately helpful. Four year olds are capable of understanding that their actions created a result; they are not capable of understanding the psychology of why they are misbehaving (nor are the adults).

Being a parent who disciplines and punishes fairly sets a good example and teaches a good thing about society. You've made a false comparison by comparing it to smoking in a room to teach about pollution. Pollution is a bad thing, so teach by example and do a good thing- recycle (among other things). Breaking the rules (laws) is a bad thing, so teach by example and do a good thing- discipline. To compare disciplining to polluting is to say that disciplining is negative. I think we can all agree that we're happy to have the legislative branch making the laws and the judicial branch enforcing the laws. So, I don't see the logic in the comparison.

I think this debate will always exist among people who are genuinely trying to raise their kids in the best way possible. I would be willing to bet that any form of discipline or reinforcement or whatever from any member of this board is a whole lot better than what a lot of kids are getting out there these days.

My daughter is only 14 months old and so she fortunately hasn't entered one of these all out "I'm going to disobey everything you just said" phases. But, since I know that it's coming I really have an interest in what everyone is saying and was just thinking about picking up a book on this topic to read up on over the holidays.

That said, I don't see how I could teach a kid that standing on a table is "intrinsically wrong" if we've also agreed that he doesn't have the neocortex to understand logic or problem solving enough to know that when I ask you to do something and you don't do it then there are negative consequences.

Jon